April 25, 2008
Pot Limit Omaha Advice
by Luckbox
I am not a Pot Limit Omaha player.
I am, however, someone who managed to finish 3rd in the last Saturdays with Dr. Pauly. I'd like to attribute it to my skill, but I think my reputation precedes me. Nonetheless, I was a massive chip leader with three players left, holding more than 50% of the chips in play. It didn't last... and I think that's because I don't know how to play PLO.
Perhaps you can help me. Here are three key hands that I may have played poorly.
This one came early in the tournament, the 15/30 level. I had worked my way up to 3380T and was the chip leader at the table of 6. UTG, I call with 9c9sTdJs. I like grouped cards plus I had a pair and a flush possibility. Five of us see a flop of Tc5h9h. What's not to like, right? At this point, I'm only behind pocket T's. I lead out for 100 into a pot of 150 and get called by Mean Gene.
The turn is a seemingly harmless Ace of diamonds. It doesn't complete a straight and it doesn't complete a flush. It's unlikely to give Gene a set of Aces because he didn't raise preflop. That card couldn't have hurt me. I lead out 275 into a pot 350. Should I be betting the pot? I should, right?
This is where I become a giant pussy. Gene raised me to 445 to 720. "Really?" I type. "The ace did it."
"Nah," Gene tells me.
"Already had it?" I ask. "Big draw?" My time runs out, and I fold. I'm really out of practice, especially in Omaha, and I think my rust caused me to see a monster. It wasn't logical, but I saw it nonetheless. He raises preflop with Aces and he didn't raise. The chance of him having the last two T's is slim (remember, I have a T). Unless he's sitting on a monster draw like QJh, I'm in great shape. And yet, I folded.
"Top 3 pair," he tells me. Bad fold. Terrible fold.
It's Level VII now (150/300) and I'm among the chipleaders with 9477T. There are only five of us at the table now. Again, I'm UTG, this time with 8hJs9dTh. Once again, they're grouped, and I think they offer lots of possibilities. I limp again and three of us see a flop of KcQd7s. Bayne leads with a pot-sized bet of 900.
I have to call, right? I don't raise, right? The turn is the 8s. It puts a flush draw out there, but I shouldn't be too worried about that, should I? Anyway, the 8 gives me even more outs. Now, I complete my straight with any 6, 9, T, J or A.
Bayne leads out with another pot-sized bet of 2700. To me, that suggests he's trying to push out the draws. So he's sitting on a set or two pair, right?
This is where my tough decision comes. There's 5400 in the pot right now and I need to bet 2700 to see a river. If I'm getting 2-to-1 on my money, then I need to be getting 2-to-1 odds. My rough math had me with at least 17 outs out of 40 cards. I could have been wrong, but I figured it was good enough to call.
The river was a blank for me, the 4 of spades. Surprisingly, Bayne checked. I suppose I could have bluffed the flush. Would he have folded? I doubt it. I checked behind him and his set of Queens took it down. (He held 7d8dQsQh.)
Now this is where it all went down hill. We're down to three players. I had been as high as 25K, but a cold run had me down to 16K. AA_Matt_AA sat with 11K and Bayne had 8K.
From the SB, I'm dealt Js7sJc8c. I like that hand a lot three-handed. I've got a big pair, grouped cards and I'm double-suited. Bayne raises to 2400 UTG. I think my first mistake was not re-raising, but I just call. We see a flop of Td6cQc.
I've got a flush draw and a gutshot straight draw. All in all, I'd call that a good flop. The question is whether or not I want to get all the chips in the middle. I'm pretty sure Bayne is playing a big pair, just hopefully not Qs. If he does have an overpair, I think I have a lot of outs.
I check, he bets the pot, and I check-raise him all-in. I think I like the play, but I'm not sure. Bayne shows 9hKh3hKd. I'm glad the read was right, but I lost some of my outs. The turn is the Ks, which puts me in even worse shape. I'm down to any 9 or any club that doesn't pair the board.
The river is the Th. Not only does it not help me, but it gives Bayne the boat. I'm down to just a few thousand chips. It doesn't take long for me to bust out.
Did I play these right? I'm positive I should have pushed with my pocket 9s in the first hand. Should I have been more aggressive with my draws? I did an awful lot of calling. How about the check-raise on the last hand? I could have just called and then folded to the big bet with the K on the turn.
Anyway, I'll wait for some of you PLO experts to let me now if I could have played it another way. Hopefully I'll see some of you at the tables tomorrow at the next Saturdays with Dr. Pauly.
Always be aggressive with big draws.
Middle sets are touchy, but in that case if you feel Gene wouldn't limp with aces pre-flop, get the money in the pot. I limp with aces all the time or fold if they're in a rainbow and completely uncoordinated.
Calling is fine as PLO isn't a shove-fest game, unless you watch the $200/$400 PLO tables where they shove cars and houses into the middle with any four.
If Bayne raises you, be careful! He usually has the goods when he raises. If he check on the river, he will probably be calling any bluff attempt. He is a tricky one, but a good PLO player.
No expert, but confirmed Omahalic. A few thoughts . . .
Hand 1 -- Was Gene in the blinds? Sounds like he limped from LP. Without his confession to the contrary, I'd have worried about TT and probably let it go. The chat would've confirmed that read for me, too. I wouldn't feel too bad about letting it go, though, as being out of position makes the hand pretty unmanageable. (Ton of potentially scary cards could come on river there.)
Hand 2 -- Seems okay to me. The calls are fine. Hand doesn't become a "big" draw until turn.
Hand 3 -- I wouldn't get too excited about JJ; even if you flop top set you're rarely going to be comfortable there. (Yr relatively better off three-handed, tho'.) I have mixed feelings about the flop. If I'm the short stack, I probably am happy & will be going all the way with my J-high flush & gutshot. Otherwise, I'm probably looking at that flop as one that missed me.
Srry . . . meant to say "even without Gene's confession I'd have still worried about TT." And that the chat (where he says the ace didn't help him) would've confirmed that read.
Am hardly an Omaha expert. But, the traditional word is that a 9 is the kiss of death to a hand. You were holding a coordinated hand which helps. But, PLO is a big hand game. Your coordinated hand is likely to own the rat end of anything that hits you right.
With 4 cards to choose from, a lot of hands have a draw. But, what are you drawing too? You want to be drawing to the nuts. And, again, middle cards don't usually come up with that. You can see why they say a 9 is deadly.
There is a lot of gamble in PLO but it is also a great game for the solid rocks out there.
T.J. and McEvoy have a book on all flavors that's an easy read. You can get the basic for PLO in under an hour.
Hand 1: Your *huge* mistake was using time you could have been thinking to type silly comments into the chat box. It's almost always a huge mistake to limp with aces in PLO unless you can count on a raise behind you that you can re-raise. Aces are huge preflop, but are outflopped far more often than they are in hold'em.
You should not have led out with your middle set. There are all kinds of draws out there and you need to put monster pressure on them. Go for the check-raise unless your opponents are massive-passive.
Any card that doesn't complete a straight or flush on the turn is a great card for you, particularly because you've got one of the top set tens dead. You bet here and then shove over his raise. If he limped with aces and turned the set, good for him.
Hand 2: JT98 with a suit is a raising hand in a cash game, but the stacks are a little short for you to be playing something so speculative for a raise, unless you think there's a fair chance for you win the pot preflop.
Once the flop comes, nobody says you have to call a bet. You're getting (by definition) 2:1 to call. You're a bit worse than 4:1 to hit on the turn. Furthermore, if the ace or nine hits, you may get no action because the Villain will be terrified of exactly the hand you have (JT). I much prefer a fold. When the 8 comes, then you have 13 (not 17) outs. You really can't like a spade - this is Omaha, not Hold'em. So you have 3 6's, 2 9's, 2 T's, 3 J's (you've got the Js), and 3 aces. So let's give him credit for KQ (top two) and say that there are 42 unseen cards, 13 of which hit you. You also have to decide what to do if (e.g.) the 6s comes and he bets. Probably, he'll check, you check behind and (as it actually stood) you win. But overall, just count the 13 outs. Then you're 29:13 dog. That's a little worse than 2:1, but if you hit (e.g. the 6c) then he'll check, you'll push for his remaining chips and he'll have to call, so you've got the right implied odds.
When you miss, it's a no-brainer check. He's calling with anything.
Hand 3: You definitely should re-raise preflop. Nothing different happens in this case, but yes, your hand is very strong three-handed. On the flop (God, I've made this mistake a hundred times), you don't check-raise - you're pot-committing Bayne. You should just fire out a pot-sized bet on the flop. He may or may not get away from it, but this offers him the chance to fold without being pot-committed.
Regards, Lee
1st hand, not all AA hands are equal. I don't believe I have ever folded AAxx pre but if neither Ace is suited and other 2 cards don't play well together or with Aces I am willing to hit set or fold.
2nd hand I checked to let you bluff a flush. At that point in a tourney if you've backdoored me I am willing to go broke.
3rd hand J gave me a straight so you had 12 outs.
Full table I fold overpairs all the time but 3 handed with gutter as well it would depend on where folding left my chip position.
