February 9, 2005
When does it matter?
by G-Rob
In my line of work there is a very steep learning curve. Its true in any business, of course, but in my case the newbies get their on-the-job training in front of a six figure rail. They learn fast or get acquianted with MONSTER.COM.
In many ways, the old pro will always have the edge. The old sea captain knows every roll of the waves and is unshaken by the gale. A verteran doctor is less shaken by a dangrous turn. My more grizzled collegues have a million secret souces to tap when a big story breaks.
But what about poker? When does a fish cut bait?
There are, of course, a thousand players who have always been winners. They invested a single bill on PARTY POKER and, from that first day, never looked back. I call this group "The liars". At least, I'm not a liar.
More honest players DID lose money. Some bought in a dozen or more times only to watch the bankroll rise briefly and fall back to nothing. I've done that too. Like most of these players my skills have developed and the rolls slowly grew less dramatic as if the storm had passed and the only the ripples remain.
But I wonder, now that I THINK I'm a winning player. Was it worth the investment? And for other players is the 10th buy-in too much? How about the 15th? Or the 25th? At what point must a poker player admit the game is fun, even addictive, but for them a very bad idea?
Keep in mind we're SUPPOSED to pay for training. I payed thousands for college and slaved away at a few micro-limit jobs before I finally hit a good career pot. I think poker works the same. Some of us are buying and education while we whittle through the required text. We're fixated on those winning players and determined to find success.
I'M NOT A PROFESSIONAL POKER PLAYER
You'll find, and this is especially true among bloggers, a real hesitance to admit this learning curve. We are putting our best face to the world and we often crave respect. In poker we keep score by the money we win and to lose money is to be a losing player. To be a losing blogger seems very close to being a loser at life. Nobody likes a loser.
But, still, even if we're honest, I think there's a time to quit. At least a time to quit playing for money. Just like my day job, some people need a new hobby. They just won't make it. Yes, poker is a skill. Yes, we can learn to imporve. But no amount of training or study or practice will make an average player...great.
I'm not planning to quit. I think I've payed for my education and I never planned to be great. I just like having fun and scratching out a few more wins. But what about the pools of fish? Will they ever learn? And what about the bloggers..I know you haven't ALWAYS been good...why did you stick with it?
I'm up +$700 in live play, and down -$100 in online play and haven't reloaded yet.....that means I'm going to play more live than online for a while.
Quitting? Not gonna happen. Ever.
Also, I just built a table for my house - check out my site. I'll have to host a WPBT live event some day.
I came out of the womb cold-calling, check-raising, and semi-bluffing.
It's hard-wired, and there's nothing I can do about it.
I'm fucking great, and I'm not afraid to admit it.
Poker is an avenue that I can compete and win in. If I didn't win more than I lost, I'd quit and blame it on poker being a "stupid game anyway".
It took me a year and close to 6 reloads before I started to win consistently. Granted, they were small reloads, but I knew that I was ahead of many of my friends that have taken it up since. I couldn't quit and let them pass me!
Most of you know my story....
Why did I stick with it? Deep down, I truly felt I could get good at it. Even being on the steep end of the learning curve was fun.
I enjoy measuring myself with tests of discipline. Weight lifting is one such test, poker is another.
Probably, scratch that, most definitely, I am a control freak. If you can't control yourself, what else can you control?
Why do I stick with it? Hell, it's fun. And -- being one of those liars who bought in for $20 years ago and grinded his way up through microlimit all the way up to small-stakes without reloading -- it's a hell of a lot cheaper entertainment than my other hobbies.
I'm still in that learning curve - been playing for somewhere around a year now, and didn't know a single thing about poker prior to a year ago. I was profitable in 2004 in live games, to the tune of about $1500, and am up in 2005 live. But online - it's just a slow trickle of losses. Up a little - lose it. Up a little - bust out. Add fifty bucks, up a little, down a little, up some more, bust. I've probably reloaded for $50 6 times or so now over the past year. I don't want to quit though, and your perspective of "paying for the education" really helps in the motivation department. THANKS!! :)
I must have reloaded $50 at a time at least 8-10 times during late 2003/early 2004. My "progress" looked a lot like Shelly's - up, down, out, reload. But I looked at it like you, G-Rob - I was paying my dues and learning the game. I'm not the world's foremost authority on mathematics, but I have enough skill at it that I picked up the basic math side of the game pretty quickly through study. The rest of it is coming through experience - slowly but surely. I've erased the negatives from those early reloads, and twice now I've built up a roll from a minimal deposit (I had to pull the first one in a tight spot to help fix my car).
I'm probably never going to be the world's greatest poker player, and I don't really care too much about that. I enjoy the game itself, a lot of the people who play it are just awesome, and it's nice having a pursuit that doesn't cost me a lot of money, if any.
Spooky, I had these same thoughts today.
I've just taken A turn from losing player to winning player in the last month. I say "A" turn, because I know it will probably turn back again before I make another breakthrough in understanding and, most importantly, discipline.
BSN
It's funny... I started on Ultimate Bet playing at the free tables. I won a "jackpot" for my straight flush that got me a few bucks. Then I won a freeroll for 25 Ultimate Points that I finished 7th and got a few more bucks. My bankroll was a whopping $8.62.
I started on the penny tables and eventually tried some SNG's. In the end, I turned nothing into more than $1500. I never had to load a single dollar into UB.
Since I cleaned out UB, and took a long break from intensive online poker, I've gotten back in with Empire, Stars, Planet, Pacific, Party, etc... and I haven't found the same success. I seem to be stuck in the middle never really making any money. In fact, I've had to load new money into most of those sites.
What does it mean? I have no idea... time to go back to UB?
I don't know the exact number of time I re-bought in the beginning. Less than 10, more than 3. I really had no clue what I was doing. Now, I have been using the same bankroll for about 2 months but still haven't made strides in increasing it. For me this is a challenge that I want to meet and destroy. The best part is that I am having a lot of fun doing it.
Blind luck is the only reason I didn't have to reload multiple times at the begining of my poker journey. After a year and half, lots of reading and studying, realizing how 'not great' I really am at the game, it's really just a matter of not getting ahead of myself with my B/R at this point. One uber-tilt session or just plain old bad luck could always ruin that, though.
Unlike everyone who has either read this post, or commented on it, I am an AMAZING poker player. If this were a dungeon and dragons meeting (just say the word, btw) I'd be the one with level 50 poker skill, not to mention the most expensive 20-sided die on the market.
My bankroll is in the tens of thousands, playing the hammer is for retards, and Johnny Chan is scared of me. (My psychic told me that)
{Editors note: I suck at poker, have rebought many times, and currently hold only a level 4 blogger cloak)
Good subject and one I'm always curious about myself.
I vowed when I started to never put a penny of my own money into the game. I played freerolls for four months before i hit a $15 "jackpot" and played penny-nickel poker endlessly in my first year, finishing that year with just about $200. I would estimate I earned somewhere between $0.10-0.15/hr. that first year, maybe less. But, I loved playing, so it was worth it to me (I'd play for free under the right circumstances).
I always thought of this as a ten-year process to get to where I could compete on a higher level. Having the patience to move slowly is an obstacle that most never figure out how to overcome.
Won a large MTT at Pacific, blew it all at the $2/$4 tables before I knew what I was doing, then cashed out my character on Dark Age of Camelot to start a run at Party and still going strong.
I play because I need competition. I no longer play USVBA volleyball during the winter and USSSA softball tourneys every weekend in the summer. Poker is an outlet for that competitive drive.
Excellent post G-Rob.
G-Rob,
I haven't busted out yet - I'm still on my original $50 deposit from March of 2004. I'm not lying, either. Swear.
Yes, I have made additional deposits (bonus whoring), but have taken that money and put it into other sites or back into my bank account after I got my bonus.
I did bust out on Party once (after cashing out the majority of my bankroll there), but was able to quickly shuffle some cash around from my other accounts to reload. Does that count?
Personally, I think I suck at poker. I have no illusions of turning pro. I figure maybe I'll get lucky and win a big tourney one of these days. haha
My bankroll does fluctuate (variance is a bitch). I'm still hovering around the $700 mark, but I've managed to keep my head above water for almost a year now, somehow.
So, am I just lucky or do I actually not suck?
FYI, I started playing poker because I needed a competitive outlet as well. I was tired of beating up on my friends in video games, so I figured I might try a hobby that I could make some extra cash at while killing some time.
That's pretty much what poker is to me: A time killer that brings in a couple extra bucks.
Excellent post, btw. :)
-TeeDubb
I've yet to bust out or need to rebuy from my initial investment. Though when I started I decided to go all out, buying in for $500, which not everyone can afford. All I had at the time was a Mac so it was PokerRoom for me, getting my feet wet at .50/1 Hold'Em and 1/2 Stud. I dipped down as low as $330-ish (including $100 in bonus) before I got my balance and worked my way up to 2/4, grinding out around $2K. Cashed some of that out for non-bankroll purposes (my worst idea ever, I might have worked my way up to 5/10 by now if I hadn't), put the remainder into Party.
I play for the girls. Some girls like bad guys... and those are the girls I'd like to meet. :)
I'm certainly STILL on the learning curve, but not so much a fish anymore.
Recently, though, a fish sucked the life out of my game and damaged my account in a 13-player tournament I'd been playing skillfully in for 3 hours!
I held the nut straight on the turn... and there wasn't a pair on the board.
I had one of two maniacs in the game on two pair.
We shared the lead in chips.
After my on-the-button, all-in raise... sure he enough... he calls with TWO PAIR!
He had a 1 in 11 shot at making a full house on the river. Low and behold, in one of my best games since I started playing... one of his outs hits the river.
Damn, I hate fish under those circumstances.
Their river sucks more!
I've been steamed since.
At least I can say, I still have money in the account.
His will be gone in no time.
Still....how, as a newbie, do you learn from and get past those bad beats?
Count me among the "liars" who posted out-of-pocket ONCE ($80). I had some piddly success at UB, used that money to buy into Party the first time, kept laundering money through Neteller into multiple other sites, and cashed checks to the tune of about $1600 in 2004.
The key is to siphon off any excess funds into Neteller, and use that money to take advantage of any whoring opportunities. Your money must be ACTIVE to be useful. An extra $200 bankroll in Party is useless. You could be using it on Empire to clear a $50 bonus. You gotta optimize the bang for your buck.
i started with $50 on party poker back in january 2004 and slowly, but surely, built a bankroll out of that initial investment (the story of which would have made a fabulous blog). then i started bonus whoring and casino whoring on top of the poker, and as of today, i sit at $20,500 in winnings (and a cruise). what did i do with most of that money? i gave it to my parents. a wiser man would have payed off his student loans, or moved up to the big games.
I have busted out many times... thankfully this was when I was playing $0.05/$0.10 games on Victor Chandler, where I'd often repeat the cycle of depositing $10, then losing it.
Basically, playing very low micro-limits allowed me to make all the newbie mistakes at a very low cost... God bless online poker!
I'm actually only slightly above break even in home games, same in B&M (haven't played in a casino very often), but online is a different story.
I started playing at Party/Empire and blogging on the same day. At the time, I knew only the rules of the game, not how to play. I deposited $500 and still remember what it was like to lose a full buyin - I even posted it on the blog.
Fast forward to today, I am up around $5k, have never been more than about $100 down, but still recognize I am not very good. I've had moments of good fortune which account for a large percentage of my wins (being at a NL table when a total fish drops in and hands me his stack over and over again, winning a good size MTT, etc.). Without those few critical good moments, I would probably have lost my entire buyin and stopped playing. Timing can be very important.
